Re-Learning Some of the Basics

In searching for answers to the devastating (to me) information that I've come across, I've realized that maybe I wasn't as clear on some basic doctrines and concepts within the church as I had previously thought. That is a significant part of why I'm reaching out to someone like you, who has such a thorough, deep and sure understanding of the Gospel. I very honestly need to get straight on concepts which I thought I had mastered in primary, YM, mission, etc.

I realize that some of these questions may seem unrelated to what we've talked about so far. Maybe their answers just seem too basic, simple, or even a bit pedantic. They honestly aren't meant to be. My understanding of them has been stretched, challenged, twisted and sometimes changed as I have studied specific issues and questions - questions about things which I'm currently struggling to see as something other than very significant problems - of which I had been blissfully ignorant; problems which are inherent to, and absolutely essential to important claims made by the church, which I have encountered during what is truly my first real attempt at objective analysis of the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, First Vision, History of the Church, etc. during the past year or so.

I'm very grateful to you for your time and effort to help me in my search for truth and knowledge in and of the gospel, even a search that can be difficult, challenging, and distressing, and disheartening. There are many who would not be so willing.

So here we go…

           

I     What is the one thing that would represent the biggest factor in the improvements in lifestyle from caveman times to our 21st century civilization? I think it's knowledge.

            What are your thoughts?

II    What is Knowledge?

       A The same as truth - or a little different? Please elaborate a little bit.

            1 How would you define superstition?

III   What is Faith?

A  Alma 32:21 ...if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which  are true.

            Is this verse true?

If real faith depends on its object being true, which is a distinction I have always been taught, then how are we supposed to determine if something is true so that we can have real faith in it?

fwiw, I remember being taught something like; faith may go beyond reason and facts, but does not go against it.

Please give me your insight.

B  Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (the unknown?)

Does it replace the evidence of things which are seen? (empirical evidence - what's known?)

Galileo said, "I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use." 

Is this ok for us to believe?

       C  Are there different kinds of faith?

i.e. faith the car will start in the morning, vs faith there is a God, vs faith that about five thousand years ago a great flood covered all the earth, and the only living things that survived were saved in a large ship.

                                    Please help me out with your thoughts.

           

       D  Is there a perfect combination of faith and objectivity/evidence?

1 Are we to be fully dependent on faith for a belief only when there is no empirical evidence to help us decide on or know something?

a Is the need for faith lessened as we obtain empirical evidence that supports it, or is faith strengthened because of the corroborative evidence?

b Do we believe that faith will ultimately be supported or borne out by empirical knowledge?

1 When a belief supported only by faith encounters empirical evidence contradictory to that belief, what role is faith to play at that point?

                                    - Do we adjust the belief to allow for the evidence?

1 Would we completely change the belief? How big a     change could there be?

2 When we encounter empirical evidence contradictory to a long-held faith-based belief, is there a tipping point of volume of evidence that would warrant an adjustment of that belief? If so, how much evidence? 10 years' worth? 20? 100?

               c Does faith fill gaps in our knowledge - or replace it?

           

E What do you think when you hear about someone who sees the image of the Virgin Mary in a tree stump, and that 2000 people per week are making a pilgrimage to said stump in a village in Mexico to witness it? Is faith what is driving their actions?

1 Same question as "E" for someone who, while attending a revival, is healed, starts speaking in tongues, faints, etc?

   a Why does it seem that the occurrence of such events as these, along with revelations, visions, etc is inversely correlated with the level of knowledge/education in society and church (including ours, even among our Prophets)?

2 What do you think when you hear the story of Mohammed's visions receiving the Koran from the angel Gabriel?

               a Would you say any of these had faith?

               b Are their spiritual experiences real?

   c How are they different from ours?

1 Are they maybe just a function of where people were born, and how they were taught to define and interpret feelings, then reinforced over their lifetimes by only seeing things through that filter/worldview, thus reinforcing its own limited understanding as the whole truth?

Please give me your impressions.

 F   In my own life, I’ve been in a lot of lessons on how to tell the difference between a spiritual experience, and an emotional one, and it never seems to be completely clear.  I have struggled at times to tell the difference; have you? Do you have a method of teaching that makes it clear?

IV What constitutes Scripture?

    A  What is its purpose? Its origin? Its role in life?

            1 How accurate should it be? Historically? Doctrinally? Linguistically?

B Do we as LDS believe that all our scriptures and stories are literal history, or are there some which we regard as allegorical or metaphorical?  I always have thought (and still do) that the church teaches that they're literal, not just metaphorical. Am I mistaken?

            1 Do we believe the flood was universal?

               a Approximately what year did the flood occur?

b I've never stopped to really understand what was/were God's purpose(s) in flooding the earth.

                  1 What lessons would you say we are to take from it?

            2 What is our doctrine/belief regarding the Tower of Babel?

               a Was the whole earth's population in that one area, then dispersed?

               b How long after the Flood of Noah did it occur?

            3 Do we believe there was no death before the Fall of Adam?

a Was the fall of Adam what necessitated the Savior's mission of the resurrection?

                         b According to our LDS doctrine, what is physical death?

1 I was always taught that it was the separation of the spirit from the body. Is that correct?

    C How is scripture established?

1 Do we know the actual provenance of the Bible? Original source (authorship, etc)

                    A Old Testament

                        1 What year first written down, and by whom

                       2 In what language?

                        3 Then what?

                    B New Testament – same questions for:

                        1 The Gospels

                        2 The other books

             2 How/when were they canonized?

V What is Doctrine?

     A What is its purpose? Its role in life?

     B How is it established?

     C How do we know what is really doctrine, and what is opinion?

VI What is a Prophet?

     A  Is it a title, like President? A calling? An office?

     B  What is his purpose?

1 What part of the things he teaches do we consider equal to or greater than scripture?

             a Is he speaking for God? 

1 Is inspiration or the Holy Ghost progressively stronger or clearer for men as they get  higher on the hierarchical ladder?

                                    - Does the church imply that, or want you to believe that?

                                    - Does that match up with your own life's experiences?

     C What status do the living Prophets’ teachings have in LDS life?

         1 How do we distinguish "prophecy"

            a When are we bound by his/their words, and when not?

1 Are you familiar with Ezra Taft Benson's talk "14 Fundamentals of Following the    Prophet?

                     - All true? Mostly true? What are your thoughts?

b What would you give as a couple of examples of prophecy/teachings/advice given to us in our lifetimes that would best illustrate to a Catholic our doctrine that a prophet is necessary or that he talks to God more directly than the Pope?

c What would you say is meant by the church's teaching "The Prophet cannot lead us astray"?

D We listen to and respect our General Church leaders because they try very hard to be close to God, are sincere, have a long life of service to church and fellow man are well-educated and see issues from a very wide perspective, that it offers them great opportunity for insight and advice that we as individuals might lack. This is also true of the general leadership of the Catholic Church, Islam, Judaism, etc. Can you articulate for me why we LDS pay almost exclusive heed to the counsel of our church's leaders and none to the leaders of other churches?

    (I know it seems obvious, but this is a sincere question)

1 Describe the difference in the way you would view or defend statements made by the other leaders vs. made by Pres. Monson or any speaker in General Conference.

     E What is a "Seer"? A "Revelator"?

           1 Are they titles, like President? Callings? Offices?

            2 Why do we sustain so many as "Prophets, Seers, and Revelators"?

               a What is/are their purpose, duty, or gifts?

VII When you hear, think, or say "The Church is True", what does that mean to you?

       A What are the most essential doctrines in the Church?

            1 What are the most unique and beautiful doctrines in the Church?

            2 What are the saving ordinances/doctrines?

            3 Are there doctrines or ordinances that are absolutes; which cannot be changed?

                        If so, which ones?
       B What would you say is the purpose of religion?

VIII What is the purpose of the Book of Mormon?

       A What is its doctrinal importance/role?

       B What was the purpose of the gold plates?

                        Both in mission and tangible use for Joseph?

            1 Same questions re: the Brass Plates

            2 Same questions re: the Urim and Thummim

            3 Same questions re: the the Papyri

IX What was the purpose of the first vision?

       A What are the most important things we learn from it?

B Where would you rank it in importance among the most important events in Earth's history?

X What is The Spirit and how does it work?

       A Does it work differently for LDS?

1 Are devout Jews, Catholics, etc. feeling the spirit when they pray to know if their church is true? What about those who are so committed they will give their lives?

2 In this context, how do we explain Pentecostals' dramatic spiritual manifestations? Suicide bombers' feelings of assurance, etc?

       B What do we LDS mean when we refer to gifts of the spirit?

            Is it possible is means something different in 2012 than it did in 1830?

ex. Joseph's gift of translation, seer stone, visions; Oliver's gift of the divining rod, Pentecostal manifestations common in the early church?

XI Miscellaneous
       A How would you describe God and His attributes?
       
       B How would you answer the question, "Why are you a Mormon?"

       
       C How would you define the term "anti-Mormon"?

            1 For a person

            2 For writings

       D How would you define honesty?
            1 Does it apply differently to individuals and organizations?

       E  How would you define integrity?
            1  Does it apply differently to individuals and organizations?

       F When a member of the Church is publicly teaching concepts which are in clear           conflict with the teachings of the Church or the Prophets, would you he/she is in apostasy?

G Do you believe that dowsing is effective?

1 When you hear someone assert something found, understood, etc. from dowsing, what is your instinctive reaction?

            2 What about crystals? Crystal balls? Astrology? Talismans? Enchantments? Ritual Magic?

       H What do you know/believe about evolution, carbon dating, genetics, geology, archaeology?

       I How would you describe humility?

That's more than enough. I hope it's not too unwieldy to start with. I promise, these are questions that I continually struggle with as I investigate the specific, difficult subjects that I've come across recently. I really feel that understanding the answers to them constitute the foundation for enough understanding to effectively search out the resolution to the testimony-shattering concerns that are troubling my heart lately.

In preparation for my next post, I'd like you to consider some questions:

Is the truth always comfortable? Are comforting words always true?

Which is more important; to believe something which is not comforting, but which may not be true, or to find out truth that is absolutely not comforting?

To quote the current favorite quote source of General Conference - C.S. Lewis

"If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth… only wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair."

                                                So…

If the church wasn't what you've always been told it is, would you want to know; and

can you conceive of any possible way to spin news like that, with all of its implications, in such a way that it wouldn't be totally stressful and bewildering?

How would something like that change your life, if at all?

This has been very, very uncomfortable, disorienting, and scary process for us, for obvious reasons. I can't imagine it being otherwise because of what a huge part of our lives the church really is.

Feelings, thoughts, and especially emotions are all over the map, seemingly changing from one to the other in a confusing brew of feelings that I’ve tried very hard to understand. I ran across one concept which has helped me sort things out, mostly because it rings so true to my own experience. You've probably heard of it before; I think I had, without really learning much about it. It’s known as the 5 stages of grief. The word grief might not seem to apply, but when something so precious, so central, so existential as one's faith is threatened or compromised, it can engender an emotional process very similar to grieving.

The 5 stages are:

            1 Denial

            2 Anger

            3 Bargaining

            4 Depression

            5 Acceptance

I've cycled through these a number of times. It seems like every time I read an article that someone refers me to, it starts the process all over again. So far, nothing has been very helpful in reconciling the troublesome conflicts in information, doctrine, and narratives that are weighing so heavily right now. They just seem to skirt the issues or redirect the topic and don't directly address the questions. I hope in reaching out to you, with your experience and resources, I'll find something, some information or explanations or clarifications which might stop the cycle and settle my spirit.

As a bit of an afterthought, I decided to put up this video, which has nothing to do with Mormonism or religion, but for me was informative, new, and usefel to me. It explains how to evaluate information, which is especially useful in this modern world in which we live, which requires that we sift through so much information from so many sources. I think it could be of worth as instruction in logic and thinking to most anyone in this age of ubiquitous technology and info. I hope that you can take the time to watch, and that it can be of some value to you, or that at least it might give you some insight into ways that I feel comfortable evaluating information of all kinds as I encounter it - and my exposure to, and evaluation of new information is essentially the root of our conversations.

           

           

           

                       

           

           

           

           

                       

                       

  

 

                       

Welcome

Welcome to our blog.

We would hope this blog could be a place where we can help each other search out truth and knowledge - of some of the most important questions in life - in a safe environment, no matter where our individual and collective journeys take us, and by so doing, come to greater mutual respect and understanding, deepen our love and appreciation for each other, and result in a greater feeling of acceptance and closeness  within the family.

Family is what's most important in our lives, and it's wonderful that we have the technology and willingness to share a search for truth, as a family group. These are some of the most important questions any of us ever contemplate, which questions go directly to our understanding and appreciation of our families and relationships - both here and hereafter.

I hope this sharing can remain primarily for our family (extended), with contributions from select individuals to whom one family member has extended a carefully considered invitation.

Maybe my questions and research aren't such a bad thing. I have taken encouragement for my own study from many places. I posted a few quotes which have been helpful to me.

"I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

- Joseph Smith

"If a faith will not bear to be investigated: if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak."

- George Albert Smith, Journal Of Discourses, v 14, page 216

"If we have the truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed."

- J. Reuben Clark, counselor in the First Presidency

"Religious teachers... advance many ideas and notions for the truth which are in opposition to and contradict facts demonstrated by science, and which are generally understood. In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular."

- Discourses of Brigham Young, 397-398

"I admire men and women who have developed the questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas and stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent - if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence nor any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it."

- Hugh B. Brown, counselor in First Presidency, Speech at BYU, March 29, 1958

"To Latter-day Saints there can be no objection to the careful and critical study of the scriptures, ancient or modern, provided only that it be an honest study - a search for truth."

- John A. Widtsoe

"The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it"

- Brigham Young

"This book ["The Book of Mormon"] is entitled to the most thorough and impartial examination. Not only does ["The Book of Mormon"] merit such consideration, it claims, even demands the same."

- James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith